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VOA專訪:彭斯副總統談伊朗與北韓問題


美國副總統彭斯1月3日接受了美國之音特約記者格萊塔·範·薩斯特倫的專訪
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美國副總統彭斯1月3日接受了美國之音特約記者格萊塔·範·薩斯特倫的專訪,談到了伊朗和北韓問題。下面是這次採訪的中文翻譯並附英文原文。

格萊塔·範·薩斯特倫問: “伊朗正在發生許多事情,我知道這是一個很艱難的局勢,非常多變。美國準備如何回應?我知道有推特和口頭表達的支持,那麼實際行動?”

彭斯副總統: “我們要記住的重要一點是,首先伊朗是世界上支持恐怖分子的主要國家,他們不僅壓制自己的人民,拒絕給予他們人權,而且他們還在這一地區輸出恐怖,繼續作為一個巨大而危險的不穩定因素存在。所以看到伊朗人民站出來要求變革應該感動每一個熱愛自由的美國人以及全世界珍惜自由的人民,我必須說今天的情況和2009年伊朗“綠色革命”時美國總統所持的沉默態度有區別。”

問: “他等了幾天以後但後來還是表態了。”

彭斯: “但是川普總統對於伊朗各地抗議者的明確肯定和支持是非常顯著的,我認為這與美國的倡導自由領導者地位非常符合。”

問: “說到支持現在有口頭上的支持,而奧巴馬總統09年也在晚了幾天以後。”

彭斯: “不僅是晚了幾天,我知道當時的情況。我是國會議員,您記得我當時是眾議院外交委員會成員,我記得2009年,看到那場在伊朗存在舞弊的選舉後由青年人主導的這場街頭運動,體現了伊朗人民要求民主和自由未來的巨大勇氣。我們看看2009年的白宮,當時的美國領導層,都無所作為。奧巴馬政府的態度是令人震驚的沉默。所以作為國會議員,我和民主黨議員伯曼,他當時是外交委員會主席,我們一道起草了決議案。決議案在眾院幾乎全體通過,麥凱恩和利伯曼參議員也在參院提交了這項決議案,也得到了全體通過,然後奧巴馬總統和他的班子才表了態。上屆政府對支持民主的沉默態度和失敗與川普總統堅決與勇敢的伊朗人民站在一起形成了對比。我知道這給在各城市街頭抗議的民眾帶來了希望,我們會繼續不僅在口頭上支持他們,而且在 們推動國家變革的同時,我向你保證美國和更廣泛的世界會與推動更好,更繁榮,更自由的未來的伊朗人民站在一起。”

問: “在大概1956年的時候,同樣的事情發生在匈牙利。人們起義,我們給了口頭支持。老布什總統在任時我們對庫爾德人做了同樣的事。我們進行了'綠色運動',就像您說的,當時國會全票支持,與奧巴馬總統回應的速度有所不同,但當我們口頭支持他們,不一定達到了我們想要的效果。有沒有可能美國口頭支持他們的時候,其實美國是想要用實際行動來支持他們上街遊行?”

彭斯: “美國和全世界其他國家能為伊朗人民做的很多,只要他們繼續堅持爭取他們自己的自由、變革,抵制幾十年來壓制他們國家並繼續用恐怖主義輸出來擾亂外部世界的激進思想。您看,當勇敢善良的伊朗人民為民主抗爭時,上屆政府不僅保持沉默,還進一步包容了川普總統拒絕重新審核、我們也繼續領導世界抵制的災難性的伊朗核協議。您知道,伊朗核協議的目標是 鼓勵一個更加溫和的伊朗的出現,但我們沒看到這樣的結果。但看到伊朗人再次上街遊行,美國現任總統願意傳承美國的傳統,向伊朗人民保證,對他們說,我們與你們站在一起,我們支持你們,我們準備幫助你們取得更加自由繁榮的未來。我覺得這代表了一個真正的契機,如果我現在有一個希望,那就像是希望像前蘇聯的異議人士聽到了羅納德·裡根《邪惡帝國》的演講那樣,知道他們並不孤單而受到鼓舞,伊朗上街遊行的人知道,在川普總統的領導下,他們並不孤單,美國人民與他們站在一起,只要他們繼續展現他們堅定的勇氣,伸出手擁抱一個自由民主的未來,美國和世界就會跟他們在一起。”

問:“川普總統現在是通過推特進行支持,而伊朗當局……政府關閉了推特、Telegram、臉書和Instagram,所以社媒在伊朗不能傳播到每個人。我覺得這個採訪會傳播到伊朗,因為美國之音會到達那裡,雖然總統可能不能傳達到他們。第二是,我懷疑伊朗很多人可能因為總統的移民政策和對伊朗人進入美國的旅行禁令而苦惱,我不知道伊朗人的接受程度如何,除非總統能向他們傳達更多信息。”

彭斯: “伊朗政權、伊朗的阿亞圖拉的鎮壓沒什麼奇怪的。他們依然是一個否認他們人民的基本人權、關閉通訊方式和社媒的國家,這並不稀奇。”

問: “除了通過推特,總統是不是有其他途徑,或他想用其他途徑。比如,參議員林賽·格雷厄姆建議總統通過全國講話來對美國談這個問題。”

彭斯: “我覺得川普總統今早再次在社媒上直接跟伊朗人民對話了。”

問: “但他們沒有社媒,這是個問題。”

彭斯: “不管是總統還是我本人,不管是國務卿還是妮基·黑利大使,我們都會繼續堅持。跟九年前不同的是,我們會繼續向在伊朗街頭抗議的人傳遞這個明確的信息 - 美國人民與熱愛自由的伊朗人民和世界人民站在一起,我覺得這是充滿希望的時刻。我的目標是……我的祈願是伊朗人民,這些年輕的,受到良好教育的人,能明白美國和美國人民生來是他們的盟友。我們希望看到他們獲得自由民主的未來。我們希望看到他們遠離那個不斷危及、脅迫世界,威脅發展核武器的政權。”

問: “如果總統不認證協議,會發生什麼情形?伊朗人民原以為,協議所解凍的那些資金將流入到他們手中,並將重振伊朗的經濟。這並沒有發生,而這是引起抗議的部分原因。如果不重新認證協議,會發生什麼呢?您覺得伊朗人民會怎樣?”

彭斯: “總統明確表示我們不會重新認證。”

問: “那麼,伊朗人民會怎樣?”

彭斯: “但是在您說的問題上,還有其它決定必須做出。在我們是否繼續免予執行制裁的問題上,總統正在認真考慮,這個決定將在本月中旬之前做出。”

問: “您覺得制裁有用嗎?因為製裁有時是有效的。我並不反對制裁,我希望能對緬甸實施制裁。所以,我的意思是說,我並不是反對制裁。但是制裁、加大制裁會不會傷害那些正在街頭抗議的人民,或者說,制裁有用嗎?”

彭斯: “我們相信制裁是有效的。不僅在伊朗有效,我們相信制裁在北韓也有效。總統和本屆政府絕對致力於繼續動用美國的全部經濟實力以及這些制裁措施,向伊朗施加壓力。目前,我們還在與國會共同努力,以達成新的協議,為接下來的制裁列出新的一系列條件。我們希望能有一個長期的協議,一項長期的立法,這項立法規定說,如果伊朗在任何時候試圖獲取可用的核武器以及運載核武器的彈道導彈,所有的制裁措施都將立即重新實施。但是這些都是我們接下來要做的決定。不過,我認為,看到伊朗街頭發生的事情,您只能相信目前所實施的制裁以及我們可以施加的更多的制裁正在對伊朗產生效果。它對伊朗的經濟產生了效果,它壯大了伊朗人民的膽量,讓他們有了挺身而出的勇氣。”

問: “在回答我最後一個問題時您提到了北韓。川普總統在推特上發文說他有比金正恩更大的按鈕。他在這場來回反復的推特大戰中以這種方式向金正恩發推,是否是在玩火?”

彭斯: “川普總統已經在世界舞台上展現了這種明確的領導力,特別是在北韓問題上取得了顯著進展。金正恩的新年信息一方面談到他想要與鄰國南韓溝通,同時他也講到擁有射程可以到達美國的導彈並且說在他的桌上就擺著一個按鈕。在金正恩發表上述講話後,川普總統傳遞的信息是,他明確表示,美國不會被欺凌,美國不會被威脅,明確地說,美國已經計劃安排向北韓施加前所未有的經濟和外交壓力。在北韓與國際社會僵持,忽視國際社會數十年,並持續發展核武器和彈道導彈數十年後,我們現在開始真正看到該地區的一些國家的行動。中國……”

問: “您不擔心麼?”

彭斯: “中國做的比以往都要多。中國需要做的更多,但中國正在比以往做的更多以在經濟和外交上孤立北韓。我真的相信明確了所有選項都在桌面上,相信總統已經做得,明確了美國擁有遠高於北韓能夠想像到的保衛我們人民的能力,並且也明確提出如果北韓能夠放棄其發展核武器和彈道導彈的野心,如果他們能廢除這些項目,還是有機會能夠和平解決北韓問題的。”

: “副總統先生,很高興見到您,謝謝您。”

彭斯: “見到您很高興,格萊塔,謝謝您。”

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以下是VOA 專訪彭斯副總統的英語全文:

Greta Van Susteren: “Mr. Vice President, good to see you sir.”

Vice President Mike Pence: “Good to see you, Greta. Thank you.”

Q: Much is going on in Iran, and I realize it is a very tough situation, situation very fragile over there. What is the United States going to do, if anything? I know that there's been a tweet and verbal statements in support, but what about doing?

Pence: “Well it's important to remember that first and foremost that Iran is the leading state sponsor of terrorism in the world. Not only do they oppress their own people, deny human rights to their own, but they also export terrorists across the region, and continue to be an enormously dangerous destabilizing force. And so to see the people of Iran rising up to demand change in their country should hearten every freedom loving American and people who cherish freedom around the world, and I have to tell you, that the contrast today between the deafening silence from an American president in 2009 during the Green revolution in Iran and the clear—“

Q: “He waited, he waited, he waited a few days but then he spoke up.”

PENCE: “Well, but the clear affirmation and support that President Trump has provided to protestors rising up in cities across Iran is dramatic and I think it's very consistent with America's role in the world as a leading champion of freedom.

Q: “In terms of support though, there's verbal support and there was admittedly President Obama's few days late back in '09--”

PENCE: “It wasn't just a few days late, because I was there. I was a member of the Congress, you recall I served on the Foreign Affairs Committee in the House of Representatives, and I remember back in 2009, seeing this largely youth driven movement following a fraudulent election in Iran, people taking to the streets, demonstrating incredible courage that the people of Iran did to claim a democratic and free future. And we looked to the White House in those days in 2009, we looked for American leadership, and there was none. There was deafening silence from the Obama administration. So as a member of Congress, I authored a resolution with a Democratic Congressman by the name of Howard Berman who was at the time Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee. We introduced the resolution, it passed almost unanimously in the House of Representatives,then Senator McCain and Senator Lieberman introduced it in the Senate where it passed unanimously, and then and only then did we hear from President Obama and the Obama administration. The contrast between the silence and the failure to support freedom in the last administration and President Trump's unapologetic willingness to stand with the courageous people of Iran. I know it is giving hope to the people on the streets of those cities across that country and we're going to continue to support them in not just verbally, but as they bring about change in their country, I can assure you the United States and the wider world stands with the people of Iran who want a better and more prosperous and freer future.”and then and only then did we hear from President Obama and the Obama administration. The contrast between the silence and the failure to support freedom in the last administration and President Trump's unapologetic willingness to stand with the courageous people of Iran. I know it is giving hope to the people on the streets of those cities across that country and we're going to continue to support them in not just verbally, but as they bring about change in their country, I can assure you the United States and the wider world stands with the people of Iran who want a better and more prosperous and freer future.”and then and only then did we hear from President Obama and the Obama administration. The contrast between the silence and the failure to support freedom in the last administration and President Trump's unapologetic willingness to stand with the courageous people of Iran. I know it is giving hope to the people on the streets of those cities across that country and we're going to continue to support them in not just verbally, but as they bring about change in their country, I can assure you the United States and the wider world stands with the people of Iran who want a better and more prosperous and freer future.”I know it is giving hope to the people on the streets of those cities across that country and we're going to continue to support them in not just verbally, but as they bring about change in their country, I can assure you the United States and the wider world stands with the people of Iran who want a better and more prosperous and freer future.”I know it is giving hope to the people on the streets of those cities across that country and we're going to continue to support them in not just verbally, but as they bring about change in their country, I can assure you the United States and the wider world stands with the people of Iran who want a better and more prosperous and freer future.”

Q: “In 1956ish, the same thing happened in Hungary where the people rose up, and there was verbal support. We've had it with the Kurds with President Bush '41, we had the Green Movement which the Congress, as you say , had supported a unanim—different on how fast President Obama responded, but is when you support them verbally, it has not had necessarily the intended consequences. This is a chance where the United States has supported them verbally, is there something more that the United States intends to actually do to support them as they take to the streets?”

PENCE: “There is an extraordinary amount that the United States and countries around the world can do for the people of Iran if they will continue to stand up for their own freedom and to stand up for change and to reject the radical ideology that overtook their country decades ago and continues to beset the wider world through the export of terrorism from Iran. Look, the last administration not only was silent when the good and courageous people of Iran were rising up for democracy but they also pushed forward and embraced the disastrous Iran Nuclear Deal that President Trump refused to recertify and we're continuing to provide leadership on. You know the hope of the Iran Nuclear Deal is that it would encourage a more moderate Iran but we've seen nothing of the kind.But to see people taking to the streets again in Iran and to now have an American president who's willing in that great American tradition to affirm and to say to the people, we're with you, we support you, we're prepared to help you achieve that freer, more prosperous future. I think it represents a genuine opportunity and if I had one hope today it's that just as the dissidence in the old Soviet Union heard of Ronald Reagan's evil empire speech and were encouraged to know they were not alone . My hope is that the people who are taking in the streets in Iran know that under President Donald Trump they are not alone, that the American people stand with them and if they will just continue to show the courage of their convictions and reach out and embrace a free and democratic future that America and the world will be with them.”””we support you, we're prepared to help you achieve that freer, more prosperous future. I think it represents a genuine opportunity and if I had one hope today it's that just as the dissidence in the old Soviet Union heard of Ronald Reagan's evil empire speech and were encouraged to know they were not alone. My hope is that the people who are taking in the streets in Iran know that under President Donald Trump they are not alone, that the American people stand with them and if they will just continue to show the courage of their convictions and reach out and embrace a free and democratic future that America and the world will be with them.”we support you, we're prepared to help you achieve that freer, more prosperous future. I think it represents a genuine opportunity and if I had one hope today it's that just as the dissidence in the old Soviet Union heard of Ronald Reagan's evil empire speech and were encouraged to know they were not alone. My hope is that the people who are taking in the streets in Iran know that under President Donald Trump they are not alone, that the American people stand with them and if they will just continue to show the courage of their convictions and reach out and embrace a free and democratic future that America and the world will be with them.”I think it represents a genuine opportunity and if I had one hope today it's that just as the dissidence in the old Soviet Union heard of Ronald Reagan's evil empire speech and were encouraged to know they were not alone. My hope is that the people who are taking in the streets in Iran know that under President Donald Trump they are not alone, that the American people stand with them and if they will just continue to show the courage of their convictions and reach out and embrace a free and democratic future that America and the world will be with them.”I think it represents a genuine opportunity and if I had one hope today it's that just as the dissidence in the old Soviet Union heard of Ronald Reagan's evil empire speech and were encouraged to know they were not alone. My hope is that the people who are taking in the streets in Iran know that under President Donald Trump they are not alone, that the American people stand with them and if they will just continue to show the courage of their convictions and reach out and embrace a free and democratic future that America and the world will be with them.”that the American people stand with them and if they will just continue to show the courage of their convictions and reach out and embrace a free and democratic future that America and the world will be with them.”that the American people stand with them and if they will just continue to show the courage of their convictions and reach out and embrace a free and democratic future that America and the world will be with them.”

Q: “The way the president has done it so far is by twitter and the Iranian authorities…the government has shut down Twitter, Telegram, Facebook and Instagram so social media into Iran is not reaching everyone. I realize that this interview will reach into Iran because Voice of America does reach there and so the president may not be reaching them, the second thing is I suspect that many people in Iran are a little bit distressed with the President's immigration and terms of banning people from Iran from coming here, the United States so I don't know how receptive the people are in Iran unless he reaches out more to them.”

PENCE: “Well, the repression by the regime, by the Ayatollah's in Iran is not surprising. They continue to be a nation that denies basic human rights to their people and to be shutting down communication means and social media is no real surprise.”

Q: “If it's done by Twitter, is there another vehicle that the president has other than I mean you're speaking here today, is there another vehicle that the president intends to use. Senator Lindsey Graham suggested he addressed the nation for instance on this issue our nation on it.”

PENCE: “I think the President again spoke out on social media this morning, directly to the people of Iran.”

Q: “But they don't have social media, that's the problem.”

PENCE: “I can assure you that whether it's the president, whether it is myself, whether it's our Secretary of State or Ambassador Nikki Haley we're going to continue to send, different from nine years ago we're going to continue to send from the very outset of this effort on the streets of Iran an unambiguous message that the American people stand with freedom loving people in Iran and around the world and I think this is a very hopeful moment and my goal…really my prayer is that the people of Iran a youthful population, a well-educated population, understand that The United States of America, the people of this country are their natural ally. We want to see them achieve a free and democratic future. We want to see them step away from a regime that continues to menace the world to threaten the world and threaten to develop nuclear weapons.”

Q: “What can the people expect in this if the president doesn't recertify the deal? Now, the people of Iran thought with the deal that all the money that was going to be unfrozen would go towards—would go with them and would revitalize their economy. That hasn't happened, what has provoked, in part, these protests. What happens without the deal being recertified? What do you see happening to the people in Iran?”

PENCE: “Well, the president made it clear that we are not recertifying.”

Q: “So, what happens to the people in Iran?”

PENCE: “But there are other decisions that have to be made, to your point, Greta. Whether or not we'll continue to waive sanctions and the president is actively considering that decision that needs to be made by the middle of this month. ”

Q: “Do you think that will help? The sanctions? Because sometimes it works. I'm not opposed to sanctions. I want sanctions in Myanmar, you know? So, I mean I'm not opposed to sanctions. But will sanctions , upping the sanctions in Iran will that harm the people who are protesting on the streets or is it helpful?”

PENCE: “We believe that the sanctions working. They are not just working in Iran, we believe they are working in North Korea and this president and this administration are absolutely committed to continue to bring the full economic weight of the United States and these economic sanctions to bear on Iran. Now, we're also working with the Congress to arrive at a new agreement, a new set of conditions for sanctions going forward. The reality is the Iran Nuclear Deal was so ill-founded because in part it not only did it not deny that Iran could develop a nuclear weapon. By it only being a ten year agreement, it virtually guaranteed that they would develop a nuclear weapon after that ten-year period in time. What we want is to have a long term agreement in place,a long term legislation in place that it says that if at any time Iran attempts to obtain a usable nuclear weapon and the ballistic missiles to be able to deliver it, that all sanctions would be re-imposed immediately. But all of those decisions going forward , but I think, as you see what's happening on the streets of Iran, you have to believe that the sanctions are in place today and additional pressure we can bring to bear is having an effect on the nations, its having an effect on the economy , its emboldening the people of Iran to be able to have the courage to step forward.”you have to believe that the sanctions are in place today and additional pressure we can bring to bear is having an effect on the nations, its having an effect on the economy, its emboldening the people of Iran to be able to have the courage to step forward.”you have to believe that the sanctions are in place today and additional pressure we can bring to bear is having an effect on the nations, its having an effect on the economy, its emboldening the people of Iran to be able to have the courage to step forward.”

Q: “You brought up North Korea in my last question, is the president – the president has tweeted that he has a bigger button than Kim Jong Un. Is he playing with fire with Kim Jong Un in tweeting him this way – in twitter war back and forth?”

PENCE: “President Trump has provided the kind of clear leadership on the world's stage that's made measurable progress particularly with regard to North Korea. And the message the president sends, in the wake of Kim Jong Un's new year's message where while on the one hand he talked about wanting to reach out to his neighbors to the south, at the same moment he spoke of having missiles that could reach the United States, having a button on his desk. President Trump made it clear, America will not be bullied, America will not be threatened, and that the United States of America has, and by being clear, managed to marshal an unprecedented amount of economic and diplomatic pressure on North Korea. And after decades of North Korea stalling and ignoring the world community, and continuing to develop nuclear and ballistic missiles,we're now literally beginning to see some movement among nations in the region, China is – ”

Q: “You're not worried?”

PENCE: “China is doing more than ever before, China needs to do more, but they're doing more than ever before to isolate North Korea economically and diplomatically and I truly do believe that making it clear that all options are on the table, that the president has done, making it clear that the United States of America has the capacity to defend our people far beyond anything North Korea could imagine, but also making it clear that if North Korea will abandon their nuclear and ballistic and missile ambitions, if they dismantle those programs, there's an opportunity for a peaceable solution.”

Q: “Mr. Vice President, nice to see you. Thank you sir.”

PENCE: “Great to see you Greta. Thank you.”

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